Rich, Fit and Happy Show
Crystal O'Connor is the creator of 'Moxie Entrepreneur' and programs like High Ticket Mastery, Rich Fit and Happy and Ageless Ambition. Author of Unleash Your Moxie endorsed by Barbara Corcoran from Shark Tank. Crystal teaches women and small business owners all over the world how to create 6 & 7 figure incomes by applying online strategies to grow your database and business' presence.
Rich, Fit and Happy Show
58 | The RFH Mind Dive: Navigating Personality Disorders within the Family - Insights from Dana Skaggs
Ever wondered how to navigate relationships with individuals who have borderline personality disorder?
Today I chat with Dana Skaggs, a clinical psychologist. She worked in community mental health for seven years then served at Woodridge Psychiatric Hospital, Quillen Rehabilitation Hospital (manager of Psychological services), 7 area school systems, as well as conducting many other psychological assessments. She’s been a board member of the Inter-Mountain Psychological Association for four years.
After she had her third child in 2001, she decided to become a stay-at-home mom and was able to do that for over 6 years. When her youngest went to first grade, she started back to work, conducting disability evaluations. She was grateful for that experience, after having been home for years, but discovered her desire was for private practice which she has done for over 15 years. She taught several classes on Boundaries at my church which led to the development of her podcast, Phoenix and Flame.
Find more about her here:
- Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danabskaggs/
- Website: https://phoenixandflame.com/
- Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/phoenix-and-flame-podcast/id1513991564?uo=4
Sign up with Ageless Ambition by visiting https://www.AgelessAmbition.com
You can also schedule a call with me or one of my team members at https://www.calendly.com/wealthy-wellness
Health and Wellness practitioners: you can learn more at http://www.WealthyWellnessAcademy.com
Now I've had patients with borderline personality disorder and for those few that actually want to get into therapy, do the work of therapy and want it. They see the impact it's having in their life and they want to do therapy. They can really manage it. It doesn't ever evaporate but they can manage it to where their life isn't just chaos. But the majority of those with borderline personality disorder do not end up in therapy. I will say they go the first few sessions because they like the attention, They like the therapist looking at them and asking them all the questions and, oh, tell me about this and tell me about that. Because they're narcissistic. So they love that being in the center of someone's attention. But when it starts to turn into therapy and they're expected to do the work of therapy, then all of a sudden they don't like it anymore. The therapist is a whack job and they won't go back And they might do this over, and, over and over again. They'll leave a wake behind them of therapists. They will cause chaos wherever they go to get the attention.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the Rich, fit and Happy podcast. I'm Crystal O'Connor, where we wanna take you from drab to fab in this beautiful life. Let's go. Hello, crystal O'Connor here, your host for Rich, fit and Happy. I have a guest on today for a very good reason. She is a licensed psychotherapist. She's been in private practice for 15 years. She has a master's in psychology or psychotherapy. I think there's a difference there, and welcome Dana. Her name is Dana Skaggs And there is so much. We just started getting into the meat of it before recording and I thought I need to hit record. There's so much that she can help us with and we're going to just touch on some of the good stuff today. But when you are building your business and you are growing as a person in any way, shape or form, you gotta look towards the future, but you also, while looking towards the future and growing, need to let go of baggage, And that is what Dana Skaggs is gonna help us with today. Welcome Dana. Okay, where should we even start?
Speaker 1:Oh, my goodness. Okay, well, let me give you just a very brief synopsis of my background, and then we can kind of launch from there.
Speaker 2:Because it's pretty extensive and I didn't touch on all of it. Please share anything you'd like.
Speaker 1:Well, okay, so my background is in clinical psychology my graduate degrees and that, and I've been in psychotherapy for about 15 years doing psychotherapy. I've been married for oh my gosh, i'm like the guy in the relationship that has to stop and think about how many years we've been married. I think maybe like 30, 33, 34, got three kids grown. But the biggest thing here two things I wanna point out right at the beginning before we start. One of them is I was raised in a situation where I have a lot of great memories. We need to put that out there.
Speaker 1:But also in that mix is a mother who she has borderline personality disorder and bipolar disorder. Some people refer to these individuals as border polars. Now she's been diagnosed with a lot of things. She's been admitted to inpatient psychiatric hospitals at least three times. that I'm aware of With my extensive interaction with her over the decades. I'm the one that diagnosed her with borderline personality disorder because for those in the field, you know that anymore nowadays with managed care, you're in and out. you're in and out. You have to be with someone for a quick minute before you start to see the pattern of a borderline.
Speaker 2:Patterns, just the key to patterns.
Speaker 1:Yes, and sometimes it appears like bipolar and she does have that. but once you follow someone and you're with someone, in a relationship with them, for a period of time, then you start seeing the traits they have, the patterns they have that are not attributable to bipolar. A lot of it is a lot of narcissism, a lot of highly manipulative behavior, and at the core of it is this fear of abandonment. So because they're so afraid of being abandoned, they- Because they can't be alone.
Speaker 2:Is that why I noticed this as a pattern with this type of person, they cannot be alone and it's almost like it sends them into a panic, and my experience has been they'll actually create chaos so that you'll come to the rescue, but they'll also create chaos in your life And they'll try to fix that chaos in your life that they created without you realizing it and want to be the hero. So there's this drama going on and it's like a loop And it'll never stop. I don't think. What do you think about that?
Speaker 1:No, no, if someone has a personality disorder that is not going away, that is not medicated, that is in the bedrock, okay. Now I've had patients with borderline personality disorder and for those few that actually want to get into therapy, do the work of therapy and want it. They see the impact it's having in their life and they want to do therapy. They can really manage it. It doesn't ever evaporate but they can manage it to where their life isn't just chaos. But the majority of those with borderline personality disorder do not end up in therapy.
Speaker 1:I will say they go the first few sessions because they like the attention, they like the therapist looking at them and asking them all the questions and, oh, tell me about this and tell me about that, because they're narcissistic. So they love that being in the center of someone's attention. But when it starts to turn into therapy and they're expected to do the work of therapy, then all of a sudden they don't like it anymore. The therapist is a whack job and they won't go back And they might do this over and over and over again. They'll leave a wake behind them of therapists because they don't ever stay past about two or three sessions, because they don't ever want to actually change or do the work or accept responsibility. But they really love attention, so they'll do whatever it takes to get the attention and they will cause chaos wherever they go to get the attention.
Speaker 1:And, like I said, i've had some patients with this and I cared very deeply for them. They were the ones that were noticing the chaos that was in their life and they wanted to do something about it and they were willing to do that. Those are not the individuals I'm talking about. The ones I'm talking about, if they were to hear me talking right now, they would not hear that this is about them, because the problem is always with somebody else.
Speaker 2:Yes, Okay, from your perspective, you just said two things that are interesting and I think we need to touch on it. Like a personality disorder tends to not change unless they really really want to. But the bipolar is chemical and can be helped And they usually do want to change and medicine helps, or medication helps, am I right?
Speaker 1:You are right to a point. Somebody that has bipolar one that's like the Mac Daddy or bipolar They frequently don't like the medication because it brings their highs down. It brings their mania. When they are manic, they feel fantastic. They are a walking mess and they're draining their bank account to go to Hawaii, They're getting evicted from their apartments, they're losing their jobs, all these things, but they're having a great time. They're out having a lot of sex, getting STDs, but they're in their feelings and they're having a great time with that. Now there's bipolar two. That's the step down, and then there's cyclothymia. That's even a step down. Those are more likely to adhere to medication regimens. So, yeah, if you're dealing with someone with bipolar, there is medication for that if they'll take it.
Speaker 2:Okay, and as long as they stay on their medication, that usually helps with the chaos right And the ups and downs, the manic, and it helps with that manage that. Yes, so with your situation, you mentioned someone in your life it was your mom has The personality disorder, which is kind of like set in stone almost, and the bipolar. How do you handle that?
Speaker 1:Well, that's why I've been called the queen of boundaries, because you have to set boundaries, you have to understand what belongs to you and what does not belong to you, and I started saying more and more of my patients coming in and, no matter what they walked in the door with, they started explaining what was wrong. Well, that's your first step You have to figure out what of this that you're saying is actually yours And what is not yours. And when you're dealing with someone who is like a borderline bipolar, you're frequently getting blamed for things that don't belong to you. They frequently are being manipulative. They are saying things that are trying to draw I call it trying to get you on the hook. It's like imagining a big metal meat hook dangling in front of you And they're purposefully saying things to get you upset so that you will jump on the hook. But once you jump on that hook, they have you. they will jerk you right into whatever argument they're doing, whatever they're talking about, and when they do that, they are then in control and you are not.
Speaker 1:But when you have a healthy boundary, you can stand there and look at that hook and go hmm, you know, i'm not feeling that. When you have healthy boundaries. You know that just because someone is asking you a question or making a comment, you are not obligated to answer it. You can just say well, i'm sorry you feel that way. I hope you have a nice day and walk away. You don't have to own their feelings. You don't have to take responsibility for their feelings, because what they think and what they feel and what they do all is in their yard, which is not your responsibility.
Speaker 2:If you can't find that you can do this, is it a sign that you need to take some kind of active getting therapy from you at health right, But also take active steps towards building confidence? Is it a confidence thing?
Speaker 1:It is a confidence thing to a point, but if you break down, why is the person in confidence? What is they? I'm not confident to do what? To stand up for myself, yes. So why? What are you afraid of?
Speaker 2:Well, let's go over what some of those fears might be. If we're talking about a mother and daughter relationship, what can happen is the narcissist, whether it be the daughter or the mother In the case I'm referring to, that comes to mind is the mother. She will try to triangulate and destroy all relationships around her And that way that person becomes isolated. So when a daughter in this situation has had that happen before, she can become very fearful that it's going to happen again. What is a way that she can get over that and realize that at some point the truth will come out, or just find other avenues and other relationships? because I'm speaking from experience Personally. That's what I've had to do.
Speaker 2:I've had to let go of anyone I call them flying monkeys Anyone, usually female cousins from her side of the family. I've had to let them all go and say bye And I don't need you in my life anymore. And that was hard because it's not just one person. I had to say goodbye to a mother. It's many relationships that she destroyed And I had to come to the place where they want to think that I'm a villain.
Speaker 2:Okay, and I had to get to a point where I'm okay with that And what helped was building a whole new life And looking for those red flags and other people and setting boundaries. So I just gave a strategy, but I could still be triggered by a text because I just shared one with you earlier, didn't I? Right before we hit record. So I will get texts to try to trigger me and get me upset, because I have someone in my family that goes to Old elementary school and high school friends and tries to friend them and then texts me about it. This is my mother that does this. I can't believe I'm sharing this, but this is what I still am living with And she's in her 70s and she's still doing the same behavior.
Speaker 1:Oh yes, Oh yes. My mother's in her 70s as well, Still happening.
Speaker 2:So it's just like you say, dana, it's never going to end. I have to change myself and disassociate any feelings that I have about anyone that she's branding or triangulating and build a new life. Is that one of the strategies that you feel like, that you teach people to do, or are there more stress?
Speaker 1:Well, there's that and there's more. So I heard several things as you were describing your situation, and several great things. First of all, if someone is willing to believe manipulative lies about you, they are not your friend, so you might thought they were your friend, but this situation will cause people's true colors to come to the fore. If someone is truly your authentic friend, they know you, they know your character, and so when someone is going behind the scenes and trying to tell them this or that about you, first of all, if they have serious concerns about it, they're going to come to you And they're going to say hey, crystal, you know someone said something about you. I was really kind of astute by it.
Speaker 2:I actually have had that happen and those have remained in my life, but the ones that she's able to control, and that's how this all kind of came to light and I started to heal some because those came forward. There were about 10 or 15 and they were all women, so it tends to be women and it's like there's two sides of the family. One side of the family have my back. The other side are flying monkeys that she has learned to control over time And I've had to let them go. But it was painful because I grew up with them. They were, you know, we were close, so I couldn't understand what was happening and I would let it trigger trauma in me And I'm sure that you've heard this before and others right.
Speaker 1:Yes, i mean, this is sort of why we're talking about boundaries, because you have to understand you cannot control anything your mother is going to do. She's going to do what she's going to do.
Speaker 2:But now I've seen the patterns, i've realized that it will never help or stop brother And I can't change her. There's nothing I can do to change her and there's nothing that I can do, so she'll continue.
Speaker 1:I want you to think of two different things. One of them is free seas and your listeners. Hopefully this will help them as well If you happen to be interacting with someone like that. Think number one you didn't cause whatever's going on with this person. All right, who's going on? long before you came on the scene. You didn't cause it. Number two you can't control it. And number three, you cannot cure it. That is above your pay grade. Free seas That's great, so you don't have to that. You didn't cause it because they frequently was trying to make you feel like you're to blame And you're the one that has to fix this situation. This is simply not true. You did not cause it's because it's their behavior. They are excuse, their grown ass person. Ok, they're not five, and so you didn't cause this, you can't control it and you can't cure it.
Speaker 1:Something else to keep in mind is, when you're engaged in a conversation with someone like this, ask yourself what is their intention? Like when they're talking to you, we frequently focus on the content of what they say, but we rarely step to the side of ourself and go hmm, what is their intention here? Like, for example, when your mother texts you and says oh so and so did such and such. She's doing such and such. Your childhood friend is Dalida. What? what is her intention? Her intention there is to make you feel bad. She's like poking a stick at you. I don't know if your mom is jealous. I don't know what her deal is.
Speaker 2:It's taken me years. By the way, dana, i actually, as a teenager, had a family therapist that we would go to, and it was always her idea for all of us to go to therapists. I don't know if she went. If she did, she didn't go alone, that I'm aware of. But I had a therapist actually tell me your mother's jealous of you. She can't show love to you.
Speaker 2:As a teenager, what was I supposed to do with that? Well, i didn't really care at the time. I wanted to get on with my life and just try to survive. I left the day after I graduated from high school, but then it took years and years to understand that this is actually a personality disorder, and he didn't maybe even know how to say that, or he didn't feel like he could. But he said your mother is jealous of you.
Speaker 2:I remember thinking that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. I couldn't mentally wrap my head around something like that and I didn't really probably want to. anyway, i had high empathy and it's exhausting to have high empathy for people like this. It is literally exhausting. You have to have energy for your business when you're growing a business and dealing with all kinds of people. That's why I brought you on Dana. We all have to let these people go at some point, because it does appear that the operating system is jealousy. Some of that jealousy has to do with relationships. She wants certain types of relationships and doesn't want me to have any, and gets jealous of relationships when I have them with other, mostly women. I don't understand that at all, but I've understood that that's the problem. It is a very complicated mess, isn't it? It's a complicated mess.
Speaker 1:It's not as complicated as you think, and once you understand boundaries, you realize that goes back to boundaries.
Speaker 1:I'm telling you, boundaries saved my life. I would have been crushed to dust if I hadn't learned about boundaries, because your mothers or whoever's their thoughts, their feelings, their actions are in their yard. That is their responsibility. It doesn't matter if they say it's yours. You can have a neighbor that says, hey, you're supposed to be mowing my yard and you're going to go. I don't think so. That's your yard. That's a good analogy. Okay, i'm saying that's your yard. If your grass is knee-high, if your whole yard over there looks like you're losing a jumanji, that is your fault. That's not my yard. I'm sorry your yard looks like shit over execute. I mean I'm sorry your yard looks so bad, but that's you know.
Speaker 1:And again, you can do some random acts of kindness and that's a boundaries thing. But if you do a habit of going over and I have all my podcasts, phoenix and Flame the first four episodes are just about boundaries, explaining all of this stuff about yards and giving a lot of different examples for people to use and understand how this is going on. Because it's like when you understand, okay, your thoughts and your feelings and actions are what you're responsible for and you get to own and change all of that, but somebody else's doesn't belong to you, so they're going to do what they're going to do, okay, and it's about addressing your fears. Well, i'm afraid she's going to go, talk to everybody and all my friends are going to be gone. First of all, they're not going to be gone if they're your friends. That's true. Well, i wanted to point out that pain is involved. If anybody thinks that addressing this and being in a relationship with someone like this is painless, it's not. Yes, it's going to hurt when there's certain people.
Speaker 1:And also keep in mind that there's a triangle going on the villain, victim, hero triangle. So the people that we're talking about. They almost always put themselves in the victim role. Well, victims search for heroes, so they find people in their life. Lots of times they're men, but they can be other people as well. That will be like I call them henchmen I've experienced this myself where they will get certain people to be the bully, to try to bully you, because you have been portrayed as the villain. Both a victim and a hero needs a villain. They both need someone to blame And a hero wants to protect. They feel like, oh, i need to protect the victim, and then they're after the villain, so they have to go after that villain. So you have to understand what the dynamics are going on there and understand they might be doing that. But that doesn't mean that's what they're portraying you to be.
Speaker 2:Okay. So you've talked about the three C's, this triangle, so I've come to realize if I feel like somebody is treating me differently than they in the past, like drastically different, i can almost assure you that my mother has spoke to them about something and tried to create chaos And it used to just be this feeling that I had and I was embarrassed of the feeling because I felt like it was paranoia or something. But then the advent of texting happened, the advent of texting, and people showed me the text. I saw it in writing and it came from four different people. Then I thought all those years that I was paranoid or had these feelings were actually accurate. So that told me that I was trying for many years to ignore my own gut feelings And when that came out, it helped me heal, even though it was still painful.
Speaker 2:It helped me heal. And one of the things that I will say is that I've had to do a lot of work with confidence in myself. So just achieving helps build my confidence in myself and putting myself out there and meeting new people and realizing I was not the problem all along. Obviously we all have problems that we're working through, but that helped me heal. So when you have patients come to you and you call them patients, clients, patients clients come to you that are, say, introverts not that all introverts would do this, that's not what I'm saying. I was more of an extrovert And so I was able to do that and pull myself out of it by making connections with a lot of other people. I believe that your network is your net worth. It really helped me For somebody that doesn't always put themselves out there and maybe stays in a stuckness. What suggestions you have for them? And I hope I ask that question clear enough.
Speaker 1:Oh, you did beautifully So my question. I would start working with them And obviously I would find out what their past was like to try to figure out why. Because if, however we are, we got that way, some kind of reason. You have personality, which is just that we all have different personality traits, but then you also have patterns in the past where it's sort of like this Imagine if you're on a football field and you on a football field, you need a helmet and you need pads, otherwise your bones are going to be broken.
Speaker 1:It's going to be terrible. So to play football, you need these things. You can imagine that you went over to a golf course and you're trying to play golf with all your football gear on. That doesn't work well. What I'm saying is, when we're a child, most of us survive childhood. Just be honest about that. Okay, so the football field is like your childhood and you have the helmet and you have the pads and you have all the stuff that you needed to get through childhood. Those things were necessary to survive childhood. But then time passes and then you become an adult, which is the golf course. But what happens is that some of us are standing on the golf course with the golf club in our hand and we're also wearing a football helmet and football pads From our childhood and it's getting in our way. Things that we do, defense mechanisms and things that we developed to survive childhood that we never really let go of because we didn't understand what they were. They were just part of how we functioned. But now we're 35 years old, 40 years old, on the golf course trying to play golf and we're not doing it very well. We're trying to adult with all this gear on from childhood. So it's about trying to address. You know, how is all this stuff impacting us today?
Speaker 1:I ask a question to my patients. Once they've told me all about their traumas and their abuses and stuff, i say, okay, this is interesting. How do you feel that going through these traumas is impacting you today as you're trying to make decisions, as you're trying to have relationships, as you're trying to live your life? How do you feel that all of these things from the past are impacting you today? And the answers that I get are interesting. A lot of them are about trust. I just don't trust anybody and or I'm very, very insecure. A lot of people pleasing and a lot of this. If you break it down and gets down to fear, i'm afraid somebody's not going to like me. I'm afraid, if I speak my mind, that I'm going to be rejected and abandoned. I'm afraid somebody's going to get mad at me. Well, in therapy we go okay. Well, i can't promise you that won't happen, but let's go. Okay. What if it does? What if you do speak your mind in a respectful way? Okay. What if you do speak your mind and someone doesn't like it?
Speaker 2:And Okay, it's uncomfortable, okay, it really forces them to have to come up with, like what is it that they're afraid of? Yeah, yes, i think a person could just be afraid of something, but not understand why. And so when you put it in those terms and have them put that why into actual words and they can't do it they realize that it wasn't there after all. Did I say that? right, it wasn't really there after all, because they can't put it into words. So it's almost like something they're carrying around for no reason They don't know why, and that's a defense mechanism. Maybe Is that what you call it.
Speaker 1:Usually it is. It's when we've been through something and we were doing that because we're trying to prevent pain, we're trying to prevent something happening. But the thing of it is, you know, we don't have to run away from discomfort. There's so many people out there who are avoiding. They're avoiding, avoiding, avoiding, and they're using sex to do this. They're using being a workaholic to do this. They're using gambling, they're using excessive spending, they're using drugs, alcohol, all kinds of stuff to avoid. What are they avoiding? Being uncomfortable, they don't want to sit down with their thoughts and feelings. They're authentic thoughts and feelings because they're like I don't want to slow down because then my feelings are going to be sitting there waiting on me And I'm like, yes, they will, and like a lot of want to feel that.
Speaker 1:I understand that And feel it anyway, the discomfort will not last forever, but you have to sit there. It's sort of like when you're being out in the sun and your skin is on warm and toasty, being in the summer sun, and you try to get in the pool And then you get in it And at first it's very cold and you're walking in down the stairs And so the cold waters up to your knees. But if you stand there for a minute it's okay. Then you walk in a few more steps And initially it was really cold. But you stand there. You don't run out of the pool. You stand there and give your skin a chance to adjust and adapt to this different temperature.
Speaker 1:That's what I'm saying. We run from discomfort, we're so afraid to feel discomfort or pain. But if you just sit with it and if it's too overwhelming, reach out to a friend, reach out to a therapist, reach out to someone else who can sit there with you in it until you acclimate, stop running from it, stop Face it, because what we run from we give power to.
Speaker 2:Ooh, what we run from, we give power to And that power wins Yes And stop running. And it steals our time, Right, it steals our confidence in ourselves. I heard that every time you start and stop something, it kills your confidence and then it's harder the next time If you're just making it harder for yourself. And when I heard that, i started really thinking about a lot of things that I was doing in business by starting and stopping And found that I was finding comfort in ideas because I'm an idea person And I could come up with 10 different ideas and 10 different ways. I'm going to go do them one at a time, but I would switch or I would start and stop.
Speaker 2:A lot of people have this, i think entrepreneurs, because we are idea people, but I think somebody with trauma that's carrying around what you were referring to, that kind of trauma, and it happens times 10. The starting and stopping, and I think a person could just eventually give up. So what you're talking about the sitting in it, sitting in the anxiety, or that feeling I have never heard anxiety talked about as much as I do now. It's like our youth are talking about it, but I never talked about it, even though I've had it all the time we all did, maybe because I'm from the 80s. It was just something that you just dealt with, right, but it's talked about more. Do you feel like it's being more acceptable to talk about Or do you feel like there's something else going on, like they really do have more anxiety to deal with? What do you think it is just from patients that come to you?
Speaker 1:I think both. I think people do feel more comfortable talking about it, and I also think that people mislabel it. Fear is the father of anxiety. So if we are anxious about something, technically we are afraid of something. There's something in our mind that has said if this happens, then this bad thing is going to happen. I'm scared. I'm scared If I say this, this person's going to reject me. I'm scared if I take a stand, i'm going to lose this. I'm scared if I put myself out, i'm not going to be the person that I thought that I was going to be The whole imposter syndrome. So if you think about anxiety is basically a fear baby. If you're anxious, then you are afraid of something. And breaking it down to, what exactly am I afraid of? I do notice that some people will say they're anxious. I have several patients that just every time they turn around, i'm anxious, i'm anxious, i'm anxious. And I said but are you really? I mean, what are you anxious about? What are you afraid of? I said I don't think you're anxious. I think you're just frustrated or bored or disappointed or annoyed or whatever I said.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of things we can feel that is not anxiety. It's sort of like the word de jure The word of the day. It's kind of like bipolar became the diagnosis de jure. Every time you turn around, oh I've got bipolar, i've got bipolar. Somebody pops it on the couch or I've been diagnosed with bipolar And so I've got this inner person in my head. That's going Okay, maybe they do have it, maybe they don't. More than likely they don't, because you go to a physician and you say I've had some mood swings up, bipolar.
Speaker 1:So it's sort of like anxiety, kind of fits into that same thing. Life causes anxiety because life is scary, life is hard, there are no guarantees. But what are you going to do? You just going to just sit on the bench and suck your thumb? You want to crawl in a fetal position on the bed and pull the covers up over your head, which I literally have done? Okay, i've done that before because when you're an entrepreneur, you have to face things and you have to push yourself out there, and you push yourself so far and so hard. Sometimes you're like I can't frickin do this anymore. I literally thought I wonder what it was like to just crawl in a fetal position. And I learned something If you lay on the floor in a fetal position, after a while your shoulder starts hurting And then you start getting bored.
Speaker 1:Then you start getting hungry. When you get the crap up is what you do, okay, so what is it just? yeah, life is scary, yep. What are you going to do about that? You're going to crawl in a fetal position, sit on the bench and suck your thumb. You can do that for a while, but what's that going to bring you? So move forward. Well, i'm scared. Okay, scared of what? What do you think is going to happen? Well, i might not get this job, well, you might not.
Speaker 2:And What are some of the success stories that you've had with your patients, with your therapies and your strategies?
Speaker 1:Wow, one person I think of right now. She had a terrible mom situation too. Her family, like the manipulative mother, draws in other members of the family to be manipulative as well. She couldn't really, and her marriage was on the rocks and she was dealing with a lot of anxiety and mood disorders and this stuff. She came in and we worked on stuff. We worked on coping strategies. We addressed things. We don't run away from them. We sit with our feelings and we talk about them and we move through them.
Speaker 1:She was able to get her doctorate through all of this and was also able to get a prestigious award. It's called a 1911 award at the university. That's very, very prestigious. And so she was able to have the coping strategy to feel her feelings, set her boundaries with her mother and those other family members, set boundaries with her husband so that she had enough energy and she had enough gas still left in her tank to do her thing, to get her graduate degree, to get that prestigious award, because she's shown so far high and above all of her peers in grad school, that she got this amazing award. She wouldn't have got that if she wasn't able to set boundaries, because these people around her would have sucked her dry and she would have been left a desiccated husk, unable to do those wonderful things that she did. So I'm very, very proud of her. She's amazing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, good, and you said a couple of really good things there. The imagery that happens when you share like the word gas tank being empty and it does suck a lot of our energy And I remember many times using those as excuses, meaning moving forward with something but then letting the feeling of what if she finds out I'm going to do this, or what if she tries to sabotage. I have noticed and heard in reading books about this particular mother-daughter relationship that we've been talking about the narcissistic mother and the unloved daughter. There is something that happens and that daughter many times becomes driven, more driven than the average person, and it's almost like it's not a seek for validation. I don't ever really feel like I need validated, but I do notice it keeps me in an elevated state And the more elevated and confident I feel, the more I want to help others And I'm using that. It's almost like I'm using that, so it could have been my purpose all along. You know they say we choose our parents. Have you ever heard that?
Speaker 1:No, that's curious.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's been said by thought leaders and whether it's true or not we'll never know, but it's a powerful thought because it puts you in a state of not victim, but it puts you in a state Wow. I chose that. Why? Why did I choose it? And could it have been because it was going to make me stronger once I healed, once I looked at it and assessed it, because it forced me to assess what's going on in me. Anyway, i've heard that a lot of females that have had narcissistic mothers become more driven and successful, so there's something in their operating system that is driving them. What do you have to say about that? It reminds me of the story you told about the gap.
Speaker 1:I think in some ways, daughters of narcissistic mothers have to, we have to rely on ourselves. Yes, because we were not able to rely, because the mother made everything about her and she was for herself, and not that she wouldn't do something. Occasionally, you know, nobody that we're talking about is acting pathological all the time, which almost makes it worse, because then, when they're acting nice or they're acting loving, you kind of think, oh gosh, maybe all that ugliness is gone, maybe they're fixed, maybe they're better, maybe that all icky stuff is gone away for good.
Speaker 2:And so you soften up and let yourself be closer, or they're born again Christian now. So that must mean they're going to get better. And a lot of times it's just another way of putting themselves on a superior pedestal, and they don't implement anything. They're just using it as another tool to use against you. I'm a born again Christian, you're not. That means this, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well and see what happens is when you're raised. In that scenario, us girls, we have to learn to rely on herself. Yes, we have to become very independent, because our emotions, our feelings are not going to be nurtured and cared for by somebody else, by the mother figure.
Speaker 1:We have to learn to do that on our own. So I think that's one reason why a lot of us end up becoming very successful and pushing ourselves because we become extremely independent, sometimes a little too independent. Sometimes it's hard for us to let people in because of the trust that you had mentioned.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the whole trust thing. It becomes real big and it's almost as if you're constantly asking yourself Are these red flags? Is this a new red flag? Is it me again? Is it the old me that's attracting this? Because you know law of attraction we attract what we are. That comment that I've heard we attract what we are really had me thinking for a while that I'm a narcissist. That's what I would think. I think no, because I have so much empathy and I have so much people pleasing and so much giving in me and I would never do those things to somebody.
Speaker 1:But you have to be careful that I have to, because you said that you mentioned the empathy earlier. Empathy by itself is fantastic. You know, pleasing a person is great, but empathy without boundaries you will have a bullseye on your back for narcissists. You are a narcissist magnet if you are empathetic without boundaries. And for people to become what's labeled a people pleaser. That is a pattern of behavior where they have to make sure that everyone around them is happy, or they cannot be. They empty themselves out to make sure everyone else around them is happy, and that is a boundary violation. It's like a martyr living like a martyr.
Speaker 2:And why? Yeah, why. I don't know if anybody do that. Okay, so I said earlier, this is complicated, but it's not. You said no, it's not.
Speaker 1:Not when you understand what's going on. It's not, and that's what boundaries are about.
Speaker 2:So I am not necessarily one that feels like, but I know other people do struggle with this loneliness. Loneliness is a big deal for people, and feeling alone So that is a very strong fear in people, right, like this person will sabotage all relationships. If I don't have her in my life, she will. I won't have any, i'll just have myself. Tell me this It's not complicated, it's pretty simple, and when you lay it out on the table and you know I'm going to share, if you don't mind, something that I feel like helps me, and that is that the idea that a thought comes before a feeling. So all of these are feelings. Right, we're managing all these feelings from our past feelings of inadequacy, feelings of loneliness, all of these feelings, but a thought actually comes before a feeling. What do you think about that?
Speaker 1:You're describing cognitive behavioral therapy. That's the basic premise behind that. You have a thought and then a feeling and then a behavior. The thing that is, it happens so fast that it's hard to catch the thought And, furthermore, there's a part of our brain, in the amygdala and hippocampus area, that holds our trauma. It's the emotional part of our brain. It's also where the fight or flight resides And that will override the neocortex, which holds our logic and our reasoning.
Speaker 1:So I had to go back and do some more educating myself on how the trauma brain works, because people were coming in and I was doing cognitive behavioral therapy with them. We were trying to address irrational beliefs. You know, what is it that you're believing about this? Do you see how that's irrational? Let's replace that with irrational belief. That sounds fantastic and that works great, as long as somebody is not being driven by their trauma brain. Because the trauma brain if there's a wound in there that hasn't been healed, that is stronger and faster than anything. That the cognitive behavioral therapy. I love CBT. There's a voluminous amount of research backing CBT up and how it helps. But the trauma part of our brain functions a little differently and it's very strong and very powerful. So if someone has something lodged in that part of their brain, then that has to be identified Because they'll know they're behaving irrationally. They'll know that They're not confused about that. They know they're behaving irrationally but they can't stop, they can't figure out why they're doing it.
Speaker 2:I love some of the language that you use, like lodged and stronger and faster. There's something in there that's stronger and faster than CBT. Is that what you called it? Yeah, cbt, because it gives me a visual. I'm a visual person and it gives someone a visual like, oh yeah, and they can visualize whatever this is in your mind and it needs to be removed. But they don't know how to do it, and I think that one of the best things they can do is visit your site. Tell them where to go. By the way, those that are listening or watching you can go into the show notes and there will be links you can go to later. But go ahead and tell us where they should go, what steps they should take to work with you.
Speaker 1:Okay. So right now I'm developing boundaries courses. There's going to be group courses, there's also self courses. They can go to Dana Skax, d-a-n-a-s-k-a-g-g-s dot com And that will allow them to kind of take a quiz. They can take an inventory. They're thinking well, you know, do I have boundary issues? I don't know. So there's a quiz they can take and they get a score and then some feedback on that. And then, if they want to take some self courses, if they want to take a group, zoom, where I will meet with the group every week and help them personally apply the boundary ideas to their individual lives and their individual relationships. And there's different links of the courses and that kind of stuff. Whoever resides in Tennessee, which is where I reside, i'm available for therapy, but my license restricts me to being able to do that just for people who reside in Tennessee. And I'm also developing some one-on-one boundaries coaching.
Speaker 2:We're out in Tennessee. Are you Nashville?
Speaker 1:No, I'm east of that. I'm like on just on the other side of Knoxville.
Speaker 2:Okay, i want to thank you for coming on the show today. I feel what I got out of this is complicated, but it's not. I used to hear that from people. Your mom is complicated crystal. No, she's not. Well, she might be, but that's not my business because it's not my yard and I'm not mowing that lawn Right, that's it. I love that visual too. Lots of good visuals. It makes it easier to pull up the remedy and the strategy when you talk like that, so that's helpful. Thank you so much, dana And anyone that's interested in working with her, go to the show notes. Get healthy so that you can have that energy, fill up your tank with gas and move forward and go after your dreams, because that's what we're all doing here. We're trying to make a better life for yourself. It's not their life, it's our life. Nope, that's it. Don't live their life. Okay, that's it. Bye, bye.
